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The Grey NATO – 375 – A Chat With Kim Frank (Explorer, Author, & Filmmaker)

Published on Thu, 14 May 2026 06:00:00 -0400

Synopsis

In episode 375 of The Graynado, hosts James Stacey and Jason Heaton speak with filmmaker, writer, and explorer Kim Frank about her documentary "Where the Forest Roars" and her book "Elephants in the Hourglass," both examining the human-elephant conflict in Northeast India. Kim shares how she became involved with this multi-year project, her evolution from writer to documentary filmmaker, and her participation in the Rolex Expedition Watch Program through the Explorers Club.

The conversation covers Kim's approach to storytelling and exploration, the challenges of editing hundreds of hours of footage into a compelling narrative, and her decision to incorporate personal journal entries as voiceover narration. She discusses her vintage 1959 Rolex Explorer given to her by her husband David Concannon after a near-death encounter with a wild elephant, and her beloved 1973 FJ40 Land Cruiser with a V8 Camaro engine swap. The episode also touches on the importance of inclusive, purpose-driven exploration and Kim's future projects exploring the spiritual traditions and goddess culture of the Himalayan region. James reveals his latest acquisition—a Bell & Ross BR03 Type Aviation ana-digi watch—continuing his dive into unusual quartz timepieces.

Show Notes

Transcript

Speaker
James Stacey Hello and welcome to another episode of the Great NATO. It's a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, driving gear, and most certainly watches. This is episode three hundred and seventy-five, and it's proudly brought to you by the always growing TGN supporter crew. We thank you all so much for your continued support. And if you are listening and might want to support the show, please visit thegraynado.com for more details. My name is James Stacey, and I'm joined as ever by my friend and co-host Jason Heaton. Jason, how are we doing today? I'm doing pretty well for
Jason Heaton uh for a Monday. Uh the weather's uh warming up. It was kind of a chilly weekend, but um yeah, this this week looks good, and and we just got done with a chat with a great guest, Kim Frank, and I'm excited for people to uh
James Stacey to listen to that conversation. Yeah, I'm really good. It was uh I d I didn't know Kim before the call and then it just went really well and she had some great answers and it's a nice look forward to the eventual release of her film uh and you know, following the release of her book. So we'll get into that in uh just a few minutes. Yeah, you know, we had a massive episode last week. Uh that was our attempt to actually keep it short, uh bel,ieve it or not, you know, pushed about two hours. So after that, I kind of I kind of, you know, by the time that was up and got to the weekend, it was Mother's Day weekend. So we did all sorts of Mother's Day stuff. And uh, and then yeah, otherwise um got up to the cottage for the first time uh this season, you know, the May long weekend in Canada is next weekend versus Memorial being the other uh in the States. Uh so we wanted to get up and ready to uh to be up there next weekend with some family, so super nice to be up there and it's where the certain season c really feels like it starts when you get up there and it's not freezing cold and you're like, uh, once the docks in the water I could jump in and that sort of thing. So
Jason Heaton Yeah. Um speaking of getting in the water, I did a uh Christy and I did a sauna session uh last evening. And um it's oh nice. You know, the air it was kind of perfect conditions because it was uh the air was cool enough that you know, I mean, we've done it in the summer before and it's just not great to go from you know eighty something Fahrenheit into a hundred and eighty degree sauna. Um so it was kind of perfect that that kind of cool spring evening weather and then the lake, uh they put this sauna right by by the lake down the street here from my house and um to to kind of do this 80-minute sauna session in 15 minute chunks and then go, you know, plunge in the in the cold lake um for a bit is just a nice just a nice way to spend an evening
James Stacey No, no um no interlopers, no un uninvited guests. Uh you know, walked in, m sent an email on the internet, turned back on and uh plugged the fridge in and yeah, I I think we're ready to go. My my weather station is back online. I'm uh I'm kind of tempted to go and and mess around with a couple other kind of semi-off the grid tech up there. A mesh tastic uh node has been on sort of my research list for a while. So yeah, I I think it's going to be fun. I I did go up and I I planned uh to do just to see what damage the kind of snow and ice might have had this year, a lap of of the the back using the drone and I I think I mentioned previously I had a pretty good crash with the drone uh piling it in in a lot of wind uh one turn versus another it was a totally different radius and I hit a tree um and I had three D printed the part and fixed it. And that part was okay, but then an entire different the motor on the other front arm seems to have seized and it was working when I test flew it here not that long ago. So I think I might have to tear the whole thing apart and replace that one arm. Oh like the whole arm. Um because you have to solder once you're soldering in just the motor I might as well replace the arm because then you can get it as like a single piece. Oh sure. So no no drone footage as of yet, but uh I will endeavor, I guess, uh to to make those repairs. It looks a little bit extensive from the YouTube videos I've watched. And uh how about you? Any any big no I assume no flying this weekend? But what what else did you get up to aside from uh some sauna?
Jason Heaton Well, you know, I always have this early spring not early spring, late spring anxiety when I'm uh you know, last year I was in Scotland around this time and then this year there was this nine day trip to California, and the whole while I'm there, I'm thinking like the the the growing season here in Minnesota is quite short and I always want to get plants in the ground in the garden um as soon as possible you know after the frost goes away and days warm up. And so um I finally had that that kind of open weekend to do that. So I bun bought a bunch of compost and some small seedlings and seeds and and just you know got the garden boxes all set to go and just just went crazy and just planted a lot of vegetables. You know, last year I grew uh pumpkins and um it was fun, fun to watch them grow and grow really big, but pumpkins aren't the most flavorful thing, I guess. You know, I wanted something that would wouldn't be quite as big and even like a little more friendly to cook and eat. So I I went with squash this time. So I've got a couple of types of squash planted and some chili peppers and tomatoes and kale and potatoes and buckets and what else? I mean just you know, scallions and arugula. So yeah, it's sure. Should all start to s you know be poking up here in the next few weeks and hopefully be able to, you know, start harvesting July, August timeframe. So yeah, that was uh that was kind of the the bulk of my weekend and then the the sauna to finish things off and a little bit of running and kind of sitting out in the sun. So it was a yeah, it was a good weekend.
James Stacey Yeah, that sounds really nice. There's something about a weekend with a bit of nicer weather that has a bit of an effect to makes Monday a little bit more of a drag. We're actually recording a day early uh because I'm traveling uh to uh an event with uh Vasheron uh in Utah. I'll I'll be back by the time this episode uh airs. Uh it's a very short trip, it's a day out there, uh f to check out the new cardinal points uh more in depth and do a little bit of adventuring uh with that watch. So stay tuned for that. Should be a good time.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Um how about a little bit of wrist
James Stacey check? 'Cause we've got a great chat with uh with Kim coming up. You want to get into some watches?
Jason Heaton Sure. Yours is uh probably a little more exciting than mine. Um so I'll I'll go quickly here. I I kind of came correct for a chat with with Kim um you know she she's uh an explorers club member and a Rolex wearer and uh as we'll find out with a story about her watch, but uh I I'm pulled out my old one forty sixty M uh submariner. So that's what I've got. That's
James Stacey such a good watch, man. Yeah. Uh quick quickly becoming a favorite for me from that, you know, five digit era. Uh I'm I'm always delighted when I see them and and the same with the SD of the same era. Uh just a great great watch for sure. I I did not come correct. Uh
Jason Heaton you hinted about this last week uh and it arrived and I'm I I told you I jokingly j uh when you sent me the picture. I said, looks great, but I hope you hate it because uh you know if you needed someone to take it off your hands at some point I'd be maybe first in line. But it's it's a cool piece.
James Stacey It's a very strange watch, uh in, person. I I'm I definitely am am I definitely enjoying it. I think I'm gonna have to hone in on just the right strap. Uh but as I teased last week, um my progressive slide into the insanity of uh anti digi watches uh has not uh slowed. Uh we I have not hit the bottom of this pit uh as I took delivery on actually uh Sunday
Jason Heaton but it's a Bell and Ross BR03
James Stacey type aviation. So if you imagine the standard BR03 42mm literal square with little lugs, um, but here kind of rendered in an anti-digi model. Um so a big thanks to Ben Buzz on the Slack uh for the trade. I traded my uh Doxa uh sub 200T diving star to him. The more I wore the Doxa, I'd had a great time with it, and I really like it, but it I just I felt like my C Rambler was still the home base uh for my docs at time, and and I just I'm not sure I need two unless I'm kind of obsessed with them. And they're both you know, a 200T and a 300, they're still fairly similar.
Jason Heaton Yeah. And sure the the 200
James Stacey being smaller and yellow, different vibe, but I think I would wear them in the same sort of scenarios. And I still found myself kind of preferring the 50th anniversary, uh, you know, feeling a little bit more special, feeling a little bit more like my home base, if you will, with uh with Doxa. So it had kind of I'd had my time with uh the watch, which I r very much enjoyed. And it was sort of on the list. And when I saw Ben Buzz put this thing on the on the buy sell trade, I I just kind of I sent him a few options. I said, I know you're not looking for trades, but who knows? You let me
Jason Heaton know. Yeah. And he said no, uh to
James Stacey to all of the models I had thrown in there. And then I think like a day later he came back. He said, Ah, I've been scoping out uh your Instagram and and checking in on the 200T, and I think I'm I'm willing to give it a try. And so we both took a bit of a risk. I've never owned a Bell and Ross before. Um, and certainly it's it's at a forty-two millimeter square, it wears quite large.
Jason Heaton Yeah. I don't think it's too big for my wrist, but
James Stacey it does kind of take up that entire flat spot on the top of my wrist. So it the strap doesn't go straight down, which is what I was worried about, which is kind of what happens to me with larger paneraye is like it's the watch and the strap goes straight down and then kind of touches my wrist as you tighten it below.
Jason Heaton Yeah. This fits definitely better than that. I
James Stacey really love the fully skeletonized hands, the loom treatment, the elapsed bezel. I've had a soft spot for their diver for a while. And this sort of scratches a similar itch. It doesn't look as good. This is more cool, nerdy than than sort of the the somewhat more elegant take that they have with their dive watch these days. And then you've got the the two screens. So for those who really care, um I went into uh sort of a deep dive on the internet to find what I could. There isn't really that much about these watches uh on the internet, but a shout out to Brad Holmes at Warren and Wound. He wrote a story back in 2021 reviewing his own type aviation or type AVI. They come in brush steel or uh this sort of black finish. I have a black finish model. And then there's also a carbon that's I've only ever seen on on Bell and Ross's website. But that's pretty cool if if if those are actually out there, if people bought them and they could be in the secondhand market, that could be fun. And then otherwise, the functionality is very similar to an aerospace. It uses an EDA 988-333 quartz movement, um, which is sort of before Brightling kind of went and made their own version of the Eta kind of take, they would have these nine eight eights, which um this is a further evolution. So I don't think there's a aerospace that actually uses this movement specifically, but they offer a largely similar function set. The only difference being this is not thermal compensated like some of the later B75 stuff. It's not a chronometer. Um, it's more of a standardized quartz in terms of its functionality, uh not as accurate, that sort of thing. Um it doesn't have say the repeating function of mine in the six five, three, six, two, um, but it does have uh slightly different uh expression of the uh chronograph. There's a split and an add function. I'm not really sure how to use either of those just yet. Um still kind of messing around with that. But otherwise it's the same. You've got a single crown, you can rotate through your alarm, your chronograph, your second time zone, uh where and your timer, and then you're into the standard times where um the upper screen tells you what mode you're in and the lower screen shows you some piece of data. I would say that you it is kind of like a noticeably different screen or quality of screen than you get on the Bright Lane movements.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Um this one is uh quite
James Stacey a bit it it appears to be quite a bit more dim. And again, these are negative style displays, so it's uh black background with the text is the active color. In this case, it's sort of like a tan, it's not white specifically. Um, so that you know, not always the most legible out format, but if you hold the this with the aerospace next to it, you can kind of tell there's like uh either a difference in the way light is hitting the screen or or maybe the way that the screen is polarized or something like that. I'm not sure. Um but you can tell it's a little bit different, feels like the fonts ever so slightly different in terms of sizing, much closer in sort of screen type as my my original sixty five oh six two as that's closer to the nine eight eight dot three three two or 333. If that matters. We've gotten very nerdy. I think that these are cool watches, the the instrument style BR O3 stuff from Bell and Ross. But when I saw this one and saw that, you know, maybe I could weasel my way into a trade, I was quite excited. So
Jason Heaton it's a cool watch. And and uh I remember it being available with two straps. It had a rubber kind of fitted strap, which looked great. And then it also had this the that kind of Velcro gas-gas bones style fold over Velcro. Did did yours come with both? Or I know I think you got the Velcro one, right? For sure.
James Stacey Yeah, so uh Ben Buzz included a handful of straps. I have maybe four or five straps
Jason Heaton here. Um one of them is
James Stacey that sort of super wide um it's leather on one side and it's like a uh cordura or a uh nylon of some sort on the other side.
Jason Heaton Yeah that you see with a lot of their pilot's
James Stacey watches. Um and it's from B and R bands. So I'm not even sure if this one is a is a Bell and Ross band. But then I've got three more of the sort of um they're essentially like a NATO or like you said, like a gas-gas bones.
Jason Heaton Yeah. So they don't go under the watch, they mount
James Stacey into the spring bars like a traditional strap, and then there's a a metal channel, which is signed to Bell and Ross. So I'm assuming these are um you know, OEM.
Jason Heaton Yeah. And I've got two in green
James Stacey and a tan as well. Uh oh, and a sand. So I have four total, but they're di kind of different lengths. Um and for my wrist size, the the gr the one of the green ones seems to be a bit shorter and seems to suit it nicely. So I was looking at a few different um rubber. I like the rubber with the BR on the strap.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Um just like I kind
James Stacey of dig the Brightling Hershey style straps, like they're just fun. And uh and so I'll I may source one of those in the future. And certainly if you're listening and you've got a uh I guess it's a twenty four millimeter, but with the flared ends, you know, a BRO3 type strap that's burning a hole in your strap box. And maybe we could trade for something, feel free to drop me a DM on the Slack and we can go from there. I'm happy to take it off your hands and we can sort that out. But uh yeah, that that's what I've gone on wrists. I'm not sure that this is what I'm gonna take to Utah. Um but uh it it might be. We'll see.
Jason Heaton Yeah. But it might be. We'll we'll have to see. I you know, I've I I've I've always loved Bell and Ross. In fact, it was the f second high end watch I ever owned because I had my my first Planet Ocean and um you know that was the one that kicked off everything. And then I remember visiting a like a local shop here that's no longer in business and they carried Bell and Ross. And uh and I saw the uh I believe it was the BRO2 that the diver, their first diver, which had like a Tano-shaped case.
James Stacey Oh yeah, of course. Orange act, you know, the orange
Jason Heaton accents and the the big loopy numbers and um it was an internal bezel. It was it was just a cool watch and and the packaging was great. It came with a UV torch, um a couple of different straps. I I just I loved that watch and and I Bell Ross, I think they they kind of fly under the radar. Early days they you know they were working with Zinn on some of their watches and they um I think kind of the real watch snobs kind of poo-pooed them as more of a fashion brand or you know bit kind of style forward instead of kind of substance but they've to their credit they've had lasting power they've made some really cool stuff and I I just love their designs and
James Stacey yeah I gotta you know hats off to them
Jason Heaton for making an analog digital version of their watch I me.an that is that it does appeal to the real nerds. I mean that's just not something for everybody. So that's that's a cool watch.
James Stacey It's definitely a nerdy watch. I like that it feels like it comes from the same sort of era in thinking as the aerospace, which I I feel not just because of the functionality, but also it you know just looks like a like a gauge from a plane.
Jason Heaton Yeah. That I've kind of made wrist sized.
James Stacey And then like I said, and and I know that we've talked about it a little bit on the show in the past, but that diver that they launched it's several years ago now, the BRO three ninety two, which is I think they do a gold one, but like there's steel black or steel blue are kind of the s and there's a a loom dial, I believe as well. Yeah. That's a really good watch in person.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. But in this case being
James Stacey quartz being the Andy Digi, it's like the goofiest kind of version of them.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Um, which w which like, you know, I guess
James Stacey that's the mode I'm in these days, but it it definitely kinda speaks to me.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Great. All right. Well, well with some
James Stacey uh watch nursery uh quartz and otherwise out of the way, let's dive into our chat with Kim Frank.
Jason Heaton Kim Frank is an award winning writer and multimedia storyteller whose work has been published in the Explorers Journal, Sidetracked, Oceanographic, Earth Island Journal, American Literary Review, SVPN Magazine, where she served as editor, and more. Her projects include the books Elephant in the Hourglass, A Journey of Reckoning and Hope Along the Himalaya, Born to Ice with National Geographic Photographer Paul Nicklin and a maze with Sea Legacy founder Christina Mittermeier. Kim is the writer, director, and producer of the documentary Where the Forest Roars. She's a fellow of the Explorers Club and the Royal Geographic Society, and Kim has a master's of Fine Arts from the MFA program for writers at Warren Wilson College and a Master of Social Work from the University of Pennsylvania School of Social Policy and Practice. Kim has given multiple talks, podcasts, and featured radio shows about her multi-year project, From Conflict to Coexistence, Asian Elephants in Crisis along the Himalaya in Northeast India. She has led two Explorers Club flag expeditions and was awarded the Rolex Explorer Watch to take into the field as part of the Rolex Expedition Watch program. Pretty amazing. Um, and we should mention before we get into the talk that um, you know, we talked quite a bit about the the film that she made, the where the forest roars film, um, which is is currently being shopped around for distribution and being played at various uh film festivals and private viewings. But um if you want to kind of get a glimpse into her work, um her book is available uh immediately and to anybody that's interested uh via her website. Um so you know we'll put a link to that, Kimfrankrider.com. There'll be a link to where you can buy the book. The book is called Elephants in the Hourglass, A Journey of Reckoning and Hope Along the Himalaya. So without further ado, let's dive into this uh really fascinating and insightful chat with Kim Frank. Alright, Kim Frank, welcome to the Grey NATO. It's such a pleasure to have you.
Kim Frank I'm so happy to be here, Jason. Thank you so much. And James.
Jason Heaton Yeah, and before we jump in, we gotta give a shout out to to your husband, David uh Concanon, who's he's kind of become our our booking agent here. He's lined up, you know, Don Walsh, Victor Vescovo, Kim Frank, you know, I mean uh I'm I don't know if he's lurking around there in the background, but be sure to, you know, express our thanks and and give him a hug for us. I
Kim Frank certainly will. He's on his bike right now, and I'll tell you, he is definitely look at my best PR guy right now. So I'm appreciative.
James Stacey That's great. Yeah, there's only only one David, and like Jason said, he's been a huge, uh, a huge supporter of uh of the show and it still remains one of my favorite episodes sitting down uh to chat with him so I'm I'm very excited to uh to meet the s sort of the other side of the that's awesome. That's awesome
Kim Frank that you referenced him right off the bat because a lot of my stories will probably reference him as as well as we do a lot of things in partnership and um that balance.
James Stacey Yeah, for sure. And I would say that if anybody's uh if anyone's listening and doesn't know the episode we're talking about, it'll be in the show notes. You can pause this one, jump back to that one, get get a uh an kind of a a a chance to meet David and the yin and the young. Miss Frank. I think this is gonna be uh this is gonna be fun. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Heaton So Kim, um let's let's jump in with um with a bit of a wrist check. I I I are you wearing a watch today? I I I am.
Kim Frank I'm wearing my Daily Driver, which is a relatively new explorer. And actually um the background of it is that I was I was um let's see when it was I was doing uh an explorers club flag expedition uh related to the Asian elephant human elephant conflict in northeast India and I was a recipient of the Rolex uh Expedition Watch Program Award and that that watch was a a very large explorer and it was quite big for my wrist and I was very honored to have it in the field. Uh I I stupidly put it on a blue rubber watch band that somebody had recommended locally because I was get I was going very quickly. I had to, you know, everything was had to move fast. And um I put this watch band on the expedition watch program watch and brought it into the field because I wanted to, you know, fly a little under the radar because I'm in north you know in in northeast India. Well, it's during the monsoon and the watch held up really well but the band it it just frayed apart and i i ended up getting this
James Stacey oh no huge horrible
Kim Frank rash underneath oh sure my wr When I returned, you know, the the watch program really has to do with the legacy of the watch uh as it relates to the um expeditions that the watch has been on. And so sadly I had to return it, but happily because I have an incredible husband who's also a collector and deep in the weeds of exploration history, the day that I sent the watch back, um, this watch arrived in the mail.
Jason Heaton Oh, wow. And that's the thirty six millimeter one I'm guessing. You probably wore the thirty nine on the expedition. Correct. Because I I during the film, of course, I mean I knew it was an explorer, it's pretty recognizable, but I kept pausing. I was like, What band is she had on it? I thought it looked I thought it looked good, but I I know how rubber works in a s in a humid environment. It's it was horrible. Yeah, that's great.
Kim Frank So now this one has an engraving on it.
James Stacey Oh, that's awesome. Uh I'm I'm curious, maybe and it might be helpful for the audience. Can you explain a little bit of the watch program? Uh where that watch would come from and what its purpose is and connection to the club?
Kim Frank Absolutely. I could even I could even hand that over to Jason, who is uh uh on the early committee actually. Uh I
Jason Heaton think I might have voted for yours. I think I remember I remember seeing yours come through. So yeah.
James Stacey I know we've we've mentioned the submariners that are in the cabinet 'cause Jason took me into the club a couple years back and we saw those.
Kim Frank Yeah, it's a pretty innovative program. And I think um the goal was is to put three different Rolex watches on explorers who are in the field doing expeditions, expeditions that correlate with Rolex's Perpetual Planet initiative. And that is, and I'll talk more a little bit about this later too, but having to do with exploration for purpose and impact and how it aligns with um a better planet actually a lot of conservation work and so um my work happened to align with that. But the uh people have taken them uh on archaeological underwater expeditions and now I actually serve on the committee and so we're constantly voting for where people now have to, you know, you submit your application. If you're a member of the Explorers Club, oftentimes you're also carrying a flag. Uh, and a flag is a big honor that um for as it relates in my circumstance for conservation as it is novel conservation, something different, something that's contributing in a new way.
James Stacey I got to take part in a in a flag uh expedition of Clipper. Tell me about that. Um in uh in twenty sixteen. It was to Clipperton. It actually we just had a weird thing where uh our audience voted their favorite episode and it ended up being uh this uh we called it from Clipperton with Love. And uh and so Clipperton Atoll is the most remote coral atoll in the world.
Kim Frank Wow. So if you drew a line straight down from Cabo
James Stacey San Lucas, it's about uh 90 hours by boat, 700 kilometers off of Nicaragua. And uh and so we went out there and dove for a few days. Uh, and uh the expedition leader uh had uh a flag from an original uh expedition to Clipperton um from some years before. Um so we were able to run it up with the flagpole that they still had on the on the atoll and and get some photos and that sort of thing. It was quite exciting.
Kim Frank Yeah, what an experience. Episode thirty five. So a
James Stacey decade ago for us.
Kim Frank Yeah, that decade goes really fast, doesn't it? It feels like that was just last year.
James Stacey Um and I'm I'm curious, you know, we'll stay right on the topic. Where did you get your start in exploration, in expedition management, in and eventually did that immediately transition to things like making films or or was it more of a writing? I know that obviously your your background is is very much in writing as well. How how did all of that blend together when it when you started out?
Kim Frank So I've always been intensely curious and I've always kind of followed my curiosity, whether it be moving to places that don't necessarily have great career opportunities just because I love dramatic landscapes or um I'm curious about a different part of the world. Um I I've been a writer for a long time. And my interest actually was originally fiction. And then I started writing nonfiction. I was an editor for a lifestyle magazine here. And while I was writing um nonfiction, I started well I reconnected with David who is my my high school crush and imported him to Sun Valley Idaho um and that opened the door to seeing the Explorers Club and meeting people from the Explorers Club. And the more people I met, the more I saw all this incredible exploration happening, but there wasn't really a connection to the outside world. It seemed like a lot of those stories were ending up in scientific journals and not getting out. And so I was keenly interested in starting to partner with different explorers to write the stories. And um early on I I became friends with Don Walsh and Don who who I believe you had on the show
Jason Heaton and amazing person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Kim Frank Such an incredible gift of a human being. And he was a a huge champion actually for for females in in becoming members of the club. And uh as I started doing different expeditions, like I went out on Britannic with um Richie Kohler and Evan Kovat and in Eto, and I got to write a story about that, which was incredible experience. And over time, I started writing more and more stories. And Don finally said to David, um, if you if you're not going to sponsor her for the club, uh, I am. And so he ended up being my my co-sponsor. Uh and and I what I loved was he really helped illuminate for me this idea of how important and critical storytelling is to exploration and how the history of exploration always included storytellers and uh in every form uh as technology continues. So I I started gearing my writing basically into exploration and then I had this opportunity in India and and that became its own quest.
Jason Heaton So let's uh back up a bit here because um you know you had sent us a link to to watch your your film, uh Where the forest roars, which is about the human elephant conflict in Northeast India, um, which is an amazing documentary that that you created and and you have a a book that came before that. But where what's the kernel of that idea? Where did that come from? Was it an interest in India or in elephants or where did the story come to you?
Kim Frank None of the above. I'm sure you've both had this situation where you just you have a conversation with somebody and something just kind of lights a spark and you don't even know that you're that you're moving forward to do it and yet there you are next thing you know you're spending the next eight years of your life obsessed about something. Um I was on a hike with a friend who who was a national geographic photographer at the time, and she lives in our area and she told me this story about seeing wild elephants coming into this um kind of blocked area in the Indo-Nepal border. And I never thought I wanted to go to India. I never thought I I liked elephants, but I didn't I wasn't like an elephant, you know, fanatic and um something something just lit and I I wanted to do that story with her. And so we made a plan to go back and and try and tell that story together. And when I got there I realized what the who am I to to think I can show up in a country that has thousands of year old relationship with elephants and humans and I'll just drop in for two weeks and and know how to tell that story. So it became a a quest.
Jason Heaton And we're sort of in that already, but this idea of the circuitous but then also logical path that our careers take, you know, like when people say, How did you get into reviewing diving watches? It's like
Kim Frank Yeah. You kind of rewind the tape,
Jason Heaton and then when you and it seems like this weird route that you took there, but then it it seems incredibly logical as well. Um and so yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I'm I'm curious with your background in writing, you know, this this film was really well done and I I'm just curious about your background in filmmaking. Like um you know, David gave us a little bit of background when he sent over the link to the film and um and I actually we'd I'd we'd love to ask you later like how other people can see this movie. But um like where did wh uh how did you learn about filmmaking and and and how to do it and all that?
James Stacey If if I could even expand upon that what while while you're thinking, I I watching it, I felt like um I really loved the the decision to to keep re anchoring to these journal entries.
Kim Frank Ah, thank you. Um, and I think
James Stacey connecting that back to, you know, I I don't want to speak for you, but you know, your history of writing and being able to organize your thoughts that way led to a very linear sort of encapsulation of what I think is probably not the easiest thing to edit into a straight line, um, the experience out there, which I I felt it was very easy, like it immediately was something I wanted to show my daughters because I didn't they would get lost anywhere in in the story or the understanding. And then the ability to bounce between your journal entries and then these fantastic sort of in the field, literally in the field, in field interviews, that one where the the the woman who starts to tear up while she's trying to explain the relationship of of nature and humans with the world. It w I found it quite arresting, but I have to imagine you started with hours and hours and hours and hours of footage and got it down to an approachable length for what I assume is like a you know a a t hopefully a television or a a streamable documentary.
Kim Frank So I began I began thinking it was going to be one article and I began in 2018 and then uh became two articles and then I then um my photographer partner moved on and I ended up going alone with a camera. And so I taught myself how to I learned photography first. So uh first I was taking photos with local photographers and my own photography. Um and then I connected and and met with a mentor. Uh his name's Anthony Geffen. He's the CEO and founder of Atlantic Productions, who does um they've done 13 David Attenborough films. So uh he he looked at he looked at my photography, he looked at the um kind of the writing I had done so far, and I said, I want to make a documentary film, but I think it's also a book. And I'm not sure what I should do. Can you just help me sort it? And he
Kim Frank gave me some just incredible advice.
Kim Frank One, he said, you you need to write the book first because you need to understand the story enough to then make a documentary. So um and then he told he told me I could still picture this so clearly. We were on a hike in Wales, which is where he lived and David was there and he they were working on something together and uh we were on a hike in Wales and you know he's got this like wild hair like big hair and it's his jacket is whipping in the wind and he's and we're at the top and the rain is starting to come and and he yells like over the mountains Kim sometimes you have to fight for the story and And oh have I been fighting for the story ever since. So I wrote the book over COVID and when I finished I you know, I wanted to uh I have an MFA in writing, so I I really wanted to go a traditional published route. So then I had to get uh had to get an agent and then I had to get a publisher. Um, and each thing took a very long time. So while I'm doing that, I'm thinking, well, okay, I I the book ended up being a lot of memoir, and I wasn't anticipating that. So I really want to now make a documentary to to tell the story in a different way. And so I called Anthony and then I said, okay, I'm ready to make the documentary now. But I I'm not a filmmaker. I don't really know my way around the camera that well. So I I brought my camera. We raised the money to um, well, first I brought a filmmaker with me to do the promo w reel and we did that and then I came back and Anthony just helped me every step of the way. So I I really had a master class from um somebody in the field that that was yeah, I was very lucky. And I I filmed a little bit, but mostly I directed, I wrote. And I'm really grateful, James, that you brought up the um that you brought up the voice recordings because I made a whole entire cut. You're right. I had so much footage. And I made an entire cut with the editor. I was in London. We we edited in at Atlantic and we edited at Atlantic in London. I had an incredible editor, Andy Lloyd, who's done countless BBC projects and we sat down made a whole cut showed it to my family dave anthony and there's like silence because i was determined I was not going to be in the documentary. So it wasn't working. And so this isn't such an important lesson that at that point I wanted to give up, really. I just was like, okay, I'm going back to writing. This is not for me. But yet people have been donating to the film. So and the people in India are it part of the film. So they're everyone's waiting for me to pull this thing off. So I went back and we just cobbled through all the footage we could possibly find of me and the and I look like you know I'm not an influencer. I'm completely look like I'm thrashed and in the field, which I am. But at the last minute I thought what else can we do to bring this to life? And I remembered that I had all my voice journals. So I
Jason Heaton would Anthony told me early
Kim Frank on, don't don't try and write field notes. You're going to be exhausted at the end of the night. I mean, you all know that when you
Jason Heaton just take so much. He's like, record
Kim Frank record it. If you record it, then you could just do it at all times. And amazingly I had those very first recordings from the very first time I saw the conflict unfold in in real time, which is like a war. And so all the emotion was was there. So yeah, I learned by the sea to my
James Stacey I mean I I have to assume the edit was quite an undertaking, uh both both both before and then when when you went back and sort of renarrated the the story with the voice. Because I I think it's one thing that you learn the photography, so now you know how to hold the camera and and what to point at and maybe how to frame somebody, and that's very exciting. But like there's a reason that usually with a film, and the bigger the film, the more people involved, of course, you it goes on to just an editor or group of editors or, you know, and and because it's such a task to take all that data and turn it into something that's uh, you know, approachable.
Kim Frank I think that you're speaking to something that people don't really know when they start to embark on a film project. I've been helping somebody right now write and direct a documentary project. And you know, there's this, there's this like you have to shoot, you can't overshoot, but you need to be shooting for the story and i had some exceptional people but we were a tiny tiny team i had a a local dp sorov mandal i had uh um explorers club guy who does um everything, sound, everything. Jeremy Lazell, Trevor Wallace was part of the first early team. David even took some footage. And then I had a lot of local people contributing footage. So you're right. You then you have like this entire mass of content, but I had written the script or written the story. And then we had to sort then we had to sort through it all. But um it it you don't I think people when they first starting out don't realize the the story is made in post-production. It's really made. And if you are the filmmaker with the vision, you need to be sitting there pretty much with the editor and then also give the editor the space to create. So it's it's a huge collaboration, but uh we had a teeny teen.
James Stacey Yeah, and there must have been a big benefit to essentially being able to use the the book as a screenplay of sorts or at least a way of organizing your thoughts. Did you find that to be true or was it a hindrance at some times?
Kim Frank Uh it's a good question. I
Kim Frank I felt like so much time had passed since I wrote the book that I had a couple of new new people that were involved that we filmed. The story was essentially the same, but I backed way off of the memoir part of the story, even though I was in it, I'm in it very actively, very much in the present tense of the unveiling of the events of the film. I wrote a separate script. Um and in fact I wrote it, rewrote it, rewrote it, rewrote it, rewrote it
Jason Heaton I feel a bit um sorry for our listeners because we've been talking a lot about this film and and that most of them probably have not seen it. And I'm I I guess it's a logical follow-up to this is to ask like who's the intended audience for this and what's the distribution plan? How can people see this movie?
Kim Frank So it's uh this is another uh the next the next phase of my lifelong education as it r relates to filmmaking. Uh the film is complete. We are doing we're hosting community screenings across the country and across the globe, actually. Uh we brought it to India recently to share. It's um not available at the moment to stream because we are looking for distribution. It's 51 minutes. It is we're screening in Austin. If anyone is near Austin, Texas, we're doing a screening there downtown at the Paramount Theater on May 23rd.
James Stacey Oh nice. We'll also be
Kim Frank screening in Sun Valley for as part of the Sun Valley Forum on June 15th. And I am continuing at the moment to do community screenings, film festivals, and then simultaneously looking into what's the best distribution process for this. I think ideally it's created for obviously for television programming since it's at 50 51 minutes. And the goal and the vision is I I created it for a Western audience because people just don't know about this story and how it relates to us really. It's not just about elephants and humans in conflict. It's really about what can we do to peacefully coexist? Period.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah, and there's even
James Stacey a point in the film where it's brought up that like humans don't share the world that well with our with our with each other. The part that I didn't even think about is like, yeah, there's a a railway track, which which is a very terrifying part of the film, but then the hill next to it, like a baby elephant, can't go down it.
Kim Frank Right. And the guy has to spell that out
James Stacey very clearly, and you go, like, what do you do for an elephant? You make like a ramp? Is he gonna use it? You know, I drive on the highways every now and then you see those ones with you know the like to so deer can walk over the highway instead of across it. And I always wonder like how do the deer know to even use
Jason Heaton that? You know, and the elephants being significantly more
James Stacey intelligent, but deer like squirrels with hooves, but
Kim Frank they yeah, no, it's true. They and they have those wildlife corridors, those passovers have been working and they have them for elephants and they they've been testing them out. And the first thing they did is they did an underground one and the elephants didn't like it. So they had to redo it and do yeah, do an overground one. And um, you know, but I think because I I feel like um you know Africa elephants they get a lot of international support because people really know what the issues are. But uh Asian elephants, endangered Asian elephants are not getting that kind of support, particularly in India, the wild Asian elephants, because I think people have they just don't know. And then so therefore there are all these solutions in place, but people aren't um investing in them because there's not really an infrastructure there in the way there is in other countries.
James Stacey Yeah the storytelling's a little bit more novel like to to the to the starting your film, I I was k constantly thinking of my experience knowing about the plight of African elephants and what they might be dealing with. Um, which feels like something I've seen at, you know, short films and at the science center and the zoo since I was a kid. Um and uh and so yeah, it was definitely uh eye-opening uh to learn about the conflict and and the the different sort of uh parties involved, but also everybody's different perspective on on w how this should shape out. Um it's there's a lot to cover there for sure, and and when when it's available we'll be sure to bring it up on a on a future show and I appreciate it. Folks who can't make it to Austin or or Sun Valley should should be able to stream it at some point I assume.
Kim Frank And people can reach out to me people can reach out to me too. I've just started uh I just launched uh in my spare time I have launched a nonprofit um basically to be a house for like a container for the storytelling but there's a schedule there and some inform and it's on my website and some information on if you're interested in doing a screening. I I travel for for screenings and I do private screenings, I do pub quasi public screen screening, so that that's educational things. I'm looking at developing curriculum around it. So all of that is something I'm I'm open to and and working towards now.
James Stacey That's great. Yeah. I would say if if you're listening and that sounds like up your alley, uh check the show notes for the links for that. And of course, uh as there's more news in the future, we'll share it. You know, I I don't want to pivot too hard, but we we can say within the context of the film, but we would love to know uh yeah let's do watches uh I'm we've we've heard pray tell of a of a of a fantastic Toyota that's in your life.
Kim Frank Yes. My bad boyfriend.
Jason Heaton Yeah tell us about the FJ forty. So the uh you know, I I was watching the film and, you know, I having spent a a lot of time in Sri Lanka and in the field driving around in those Tata and Mahindra jeeps and some Toyotas and a few Land Rovers. Um, you know, I'm sure that was uh I remember, you know, years ago that being a bit of an influence on my decision to kind of get into the Land Rover world was just that just I love that sort of go anywhere adventure aspect to them. Was that um which came first? I mean, did what did did the F J forty kind of come out of this experience or had you always wanted one? And tell us about the vehicle.
Kim Frank I um well, so the F J forty is nineteen seventy three, but it's a it's a late year 1973. So that means parts are funky because there's like this crossover between 74 parts and 73 parts. So you you you have a you know no I'm not super mechanical. Is that
James Stacey due to the gas crisis? Or just a change in the generation?
Kim Frank That's a great question. No, I think it was a change in the generation. And so there's just a there's always like mechanics working on it or is not quite sure what to put in it it. Um, is a bit of a mutt because it it has a 327 uh 1969 Camaro engine. I'm always like, don't say Camaro, don't say Camaro. When I start it up, it roars like
Jason Heaton it has so much power. And
Kim Frank the guy that owned it before me had put an overdrive in it. So it's um it's kind of a beast. I When first got it, it had a soft top, which looked crappy. It looked it looked like um like an old Jeep. No, but not a it's not a Jeep. I mean I'll back up and tell more of the story because I started with a Jeep and I love Jeeps, but I really the the Land Cruiser has its own vibe, its own mystique, its own kind of international feel of adventure beyond what a what I feel a a Jeep has. Um, but I had a friend who has a ranch and he's like, oh, I've got a an old uh top for that and ambulance doors and it's just on the ranch. I'll bring it down for you. You can put it on. So he brings it on this flap bed truck thing. We put we give it to somebody to put the whole thing together. The first time I see it, like why are these weird gaps? Uh what's going on? Well what's going on I find out after the fact is that that roof and ambulance doors are from nineteen seventy five. So So it's now retrofitted, but it looks fantastic. And um yeah, it I mean it breaks down every once in a while and then it gets fixed and it's in the shop for a long time. Right now it's let's knock on wood. It's had a a good life so far. I've been driving it and really enjoying it. Just had to get new tires. But the hist so when I first knew Dave, I was 18 years old, he was 19 years old. Uh he had a Jeep, a CJ, and he used to call CJ seven or CJ5. He used to come to work at we worked together as lifeguards and he would you know drive that jeep and I thought it was the coolest I had like an old Volvo so I could be safe and by them my parents had me driving. And I wanted that Jeep. I mean, I had a crush on him, but I I wanted to be him because he had that
Jason Heaton Jeep. So uh
Kim Frank fast forward and by my junior year in college, I had my first Jeep and I immediately like ripped the top off and took it out in the backcountry wherever I could find in upstate New York and drove around like mad. And then my dad, who was like, that thing is a contraption, and I can't even why I don't even know why you like it. A year later, bought himself a an old CJ7 that he like rebuilt from scratch. And then after that, he got a Defender, a Defender 90, the um North American the N NAAS Defender ninety and I have fond memories of bombing around with him in that so we're a car family
James Stacey anyS specs are so uh so in demand now.
Kim Frank Oh yes, he just sadly devastatingly sold his a couple years ago. I was like,
Kim Frank no, I want it. Well a couple years ago that might
James Stacey have been right. It was he sold it at
Kim Frank the peak. He drives a Porsche now. Yeah. That's the one
Jason Heaton I'm also curious about um you know, as as kind of a further pivot from from talking about the film and you know moving through the the Toyota like w when you look ahead um is is the elephant human conflict project something that you are you will continue or are you are you looking ahead at another project? I realize you're still in the thick of it with finding distribution and doing these festivals and showings and things, but you know, like some people they find their calling. Um is this your calling or was this a project not to minimize it? I mean certainly it will have its impact, et cetera, but or are you are you kind of ready to put a bow on that and move on to, you know, something completely different?
Kim Frank It's a great question. And honestly, um I joke sometimes like that doesn't matter if I'm finished with the elephants because they're not finished with me. And I but I what I'm leaning into, what I'm discovering is that there's something bigger. And um you know, this experience over the last eight, nine years working with this material and and over there in India and spending time in one area deeper, deeper, deeper dive, has opened up um a lot of other things that are connected to energetically connected to elephants, um and that I feel are elephants are a conduit for this kind of bigger conversation as it relates to what it takes to have peaceful coexistence. And I have been taking more of a deep dive into studying the spiritual roots of
Jason Heaton that area, which has um
Kim Frank a very at its very root, a fascinating Shiva Shakti tradition, which is an equal parts masculine, feminine um spirituality that's been largely lost throughout the rest of the globe, but is still practiced in real time among the people living along that ancient migration corridor. So last spring I traveled via vehicle mostly the 2300 kilometers of the ancient elephant migration route meeting with people who have been living with those elephants for generations generations and wanting to see, is there hope here? What, you know, I've been spending so much time in conflict. Where's the hope? And I found it. And so now I'm working on a new book um that that speaks to that, but I I can't seem to do things in an easy way. So my vision is actually a new structure that that is fairly uh non-traditional, which is um I'm trying to create a structure that mirrors an anamite shell.
Jason Heaton Hmm. No I
James Stacey have a fossilized uh anonymite just
Jason Heaton uh uh just downstairs next to my
James Stacey television as a bookend. It's quite it's quite cool.
Kim Frank Have you ever picked it up and looked in the light with the
James Stacey opalescence like held it up to the sun. Yeah it's
Kim Frank beautiful. Yeah. And also where the parts uh towards the end, the chambers open up and they become thinner. And when you hold that up on one side to the sun, it shines through. And that is fascinating to me from a structural standpoint. They're really special. And so I'm gonna anyway so that's next and um I'm also as I'm also looking at doing a short film that focuses a little bit more on some of the stuff I had to cut to make this this last film. And that is some of the um goddess traditions that have been in this region and how it connects to the matriarch elephant herds. And so and the women living there now. So it's ambitious. But um so I I guess in some ways I'm I'm expanding and moving forward, but I'm still doing talks about I'm still committed to following through with the raising of awareness of the of the issue. But um I do side stuff. I'm going to the Boiling River as on an expedition um with Andreas Russo this summer and I'll be photographing and deepening my connection to the the jungle, which I'm really, really keen to do.
Jason Heaton Well it looks like I mean we've got a few minutes left before um we have a kind of a hard out here in about ten minutes, but um I I'm just curious about talking about the future and kind of the routes that careers take and your interests. Um I just wanted to get a kind of your brief take on like w what you feel exploration means to you. I think as from my own time in the Explorers Club and looking at where to send these expedition watches, et cetera, I see I've seen a lot of these applications come through and you know, there's kind of the more traditional, we're gonna climb a mountain, we're gonna dive a shipwreck, and then there's we're gonna tell this story, or we're going to interview these people, or you know, it it's exploration takes a lot of different forms. Um what what what kind of does exploration mean to you? How would you define it?
Kim Frank To me, exploration means I'm interested in exploration with with impact and purpose. And I'm interested in exploration that deeply connects to communities and works with explorers who are in those backyards. And so I may be coming in from another place, but I want to work with a team that that is also interested in exploring facets of their own of their own area. And so what I think exploration has really started to evolve, at least especially what I'm seeing with the Explorers Club, exploration has started to evolve into really becoming a lot more inclusive, a lot more focused on impact and purpose. And to me, what is most vitally important is bringing those stories back to a broader audience that this is what I learned. And I want to teach others what I learned and show others what what we learned. together And that I think brings it deepens empathy and helps strengthen coexistence.
James Stacey I'm also I'm also I have one one one follow-up question. Uh, you know, being being largely a watch themed podcast, adventuring and exploring is a big part of it. But from your perspective, and and I think we got a little bit of this in our conversation with David, where do you think watch is a luxury product that uh most of us don't need. Uh obviously helpful if you're in the jungle in India to know what time it is, of course. Um, but in most of our modern lives, certainly in the Western context, a trinket uh a thing to signal wealth and or or nurtery, which is can be good or bad depending on your perspective, of course. But where do you think watches, what what's the role that you've experienced in terms of meaningful? And if it doesn't exist, that's of course an answer, but a meaningful effect that watches have on exploration and the sort of work that that gets you out of bed in the morning.
Kim Frank I've always wanted a watch. Ever since I was a little, I've wanted a watch. I love knowing the time and I'm also fascinated by time as something that is, you know, I'm starting to loot, I'm starting to think about time in a whole different way, really. That, you know, what is time? What is time actually? But for me, watches are about storytelling and history. And um in particular, uh I cherish the history of the Rolex brand, for example, um, and also you know, Omega, so many other watch companies that have invested in exploration for for decades, for decades and decades. And those stories, when I wear a watch that has a story or uh that symbolizes a story, to me it just brings, I I love things that are vintage, I love things that have history, I love watches for that reason. And they're beautiful. And you know, one of my most cherished watches is a watch that um I had long admired in Dave's collection and it was if I have time to just quick share this watch story. It's a 1959 Explorer Gold Cap Waffle Dial Cobalt Blue Seconds hand uh on a black alligator band made for Canadian market. So it's it's pretty unusual. I've long admired it. I wore it all the time, it's very delicate and it was modeled after the one that you know had the Everest history and also the flight history over Everest. Um and then when I had my very first encounter with my first wild elephant that I almost died actually. And most husbands would have said, like, you know,
Kim Frank get home right now. Like and my husband
Kim Frank said, now you're now you have crossed the threshold into a true explorer. You are eyes wide open, and now it's your responsibility to share that story with others. And when I got home, there was this paper bag, tiny paper bag that says for Kimberly, my intrepid explorer with love Dave, and inside was that Bull Cap Explored 1959. Look, I
James Stacey think that's uh I think that's an absolute incredible place to stop. What I hope will be a a series of chats with you as you uh continue your adventures and exploration of the world. Congratulations on the film. I know that most people listening to it haven't seen it yet, but I do hope that people get a chance to see it soon. It's definitely worth your hours time, and I think it's a good one for a family to take in. Um and yeah, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a delight.
Kim Frank Thank you. It was such a great time talking to you both. Thank you so much.
James Stacey Allright, a huge thank you to Kim for being on the show. That was an absolute delight, as I mentioned, and uh and a thank you uh to David for the continued support of finding us some of our best guests. Uh man, that was a real treat to to sit down with Kim and learn more, not just about the film, but about the book and everything else. I thought that was really fun. And then you know, you pull it the thread a little bit, you end up getting a great watch story. I think that's what comes with being in sort of the the the con canon slash frank world is you know maybe watches aren't always front and center but they're always part of the the overall experience and the storytelling and that sort of thing. And man, I did not expect uh a V8 swap in the FJ
Jason Heaton 40. Yeah. Yeah. You know, she mentioned that it could it could really uh could really move and I was like, I'm not sure I'd want to drive something, you know, that's uh, you know, on leaf Springs, uh and, you know, fifty years old uh for sure terribly fast. But uh, you know, I I I she knows what she's doing. And it's a it's a cool truck. I mean th this episode had it all. It had uh great great filmmaking and and and writing um and watches and and a cool vehicle. So yeah, thanks so much to Kim for coming on.
James Stacey Yeah, and don't forget you can check out her book before the movie is out. Movie's not out just yet, but the book definitely is Elephants in the Hourglass, A Journey of Reckoning and Hope Along the Himalaya, which came out in 2025, and you can find it in the show notes. We highly recommend it, especially uh as we had such a good time uh being able to preview the film. So stay tuned to the show uh in the coming weeks while we uh get updates on uh the the description of the film and we'll go from there. But uh again a huge thank you to Kim for being on the show and Jason, how about some final notes?
Jason Heaton Yeah, sure thing. Mine comes from uh the New York Times, uh one of my favorite reading outlets um I often share from there and and you know it does have a paywall but I I feel like enough people have uh subscriptions or can can get access to uh to gift articles. Um this one uh was on their website and the title is He Thinks Netflix Accused Him of Murder, the Courts Disagree. And it's a story about um the free diver uh Francisco Pippin uh Ferreras. And you might recall he kind of had his heyday in uh what I would call kind of the early days of kind of the celebrity free diver. You know, this was m do you remember what Tanya Streeter was uh she was an ambassador for Tag Hoyer. Um, you know, you had uh Herbert Nietzsche, uh he was a a Brightling ambassador. I mean we still see free divers kind of in the watch space who
James Stacey is it for um for Oris? Carlos Costa
Jason Heaton Carlos Costa, yeah. Um Morgan Burchis is with Tutor still. Um but but Pippin Ferreris was kind of at the early days of this and his his sponsor was uh if you remember I this is a real tangent here, but um the the watch brand that also sponsored Mike Horn in his early days, Sector Watches. Do you remembertor sector?
James Stacey Sec. Yeah, of course. And they were a they were like a thing for a few years.
Jason Heaton Oh, they sure were. And they were really kind of behind a lot of adventurers. I mean, when Mike Horn did his Amazon swim, you know, sector logo was really big on all of his kit. And um so anyway, Pippen Ferraris was uh was a sector sponsored free diver. He set all sorts of world records and some extreme disciplines, specifically the no limits discipline, which is you know, you ride a weighted sled down to 300 meters and then pull the pin and a balloon inflates and you rock it back to the surface. Pretty crazy stuff. Um anyway, the um in a fairly well-known story, um, he had a relationship, romantic relationship with a French woman named Audrey Mestre. And um when Ferreris was kind of easing out of diving due to some injuries, he kind of took her under his wing, so to speak, both romantically and uh professionally, uh, and started training her in free diving. And when his record, his No Limits record got beaten by Tanya Streeter, he encouraged Mestra to try to break Streeter's record. And so he trained her for this and set up this dive Um long story short, she she died um on the return to the surface. That her um the compressed air tank was not full and it did not inflate the balloon to bring her back from, you know, two hundred and seventy some meters. Goodness sakes. And she drowned. And um there were books written about it. There were articles. This was back in the early 2000s. And um anyway, Netflix made a docudrama called No Limit, and it was you know, they said it was inspired by true events, and it was it was the the couple in the story were French instead of French and Cuban, which is what uh uh Pippin Ferreris is. Um, but you know, you you could tell uh without much difficulty that it was based on their story. And anyway, he's uh accusing Netflix of libel um for basically saying that he murdered her because there was a lot of speculation that he was responsible for not filling that uh compressed air tank. And um it was it was a really good article. I I had forgotten about Pippen Ferraris. I remember reading about him quite a bit, um, you know, a decade ago or longer. And uh this this kind of reminded me of that story, and I have not seen the Netflix film, No Limit, um, but now I kind of want to see it. But it's it's just an interesting story. It's a very long read. Um, you can listen to it. Um, if you listen to it, it says it's 47 minutes long to listen to, so it's quite a long form piece. But just a really fascinating story. So I do recommend it, even if you haven't heard of Pippin Ferreris and don't have an interest in free diving. I think it's an interesting kind of study of you know, even just lawsuits of this nature and kind of the the world of docudramas versus documentaries and uh as well as a glimpse into this extreme form of free diving. And and actually in in the article I read that uh ADA, AIDA, the kind of organization that oversees free diving competitions, no longer um condones or supports uh no limits style free diving because it it is very extreme and a lot of people have had some pretty pretty horrible injuries doing it. So interesting read. Yeah.
James Stacey Look looks like a heck of a story. I I clicked into it when I saw it in the notes earlier, realized just how long it was and went and saved it. So maybe maybe on my flight tomorrow or or waiting in waiting at the uh gate or something. I'll get into it. But yeah, that's uh that's something else and definitely obviously an exceptionally heavy topic. If you'll allow me to see your very heavy topic and raise you a flashlight, we can move forward.
Jason Heaton Yes, please do. Let's finish on an up uh up note. Yeah.
James Stacey Not not not to diminish, of course, the topics of that story.
Jason Heaton Yeah. But I did see uh just
James Stacey recently on a Josh Fenn video on YouTube that O Light, somebody we've uh a brand we've talked a ton about that I carry all the time. I promise this is not an ad in any way. I have no relationship with O Lite. I've bought several of their flashlights for whatever they were available for on Amazon at the time. Um I've talked a lot in the past about the standard O-Light Clip, which is nice and small and does uh a standard sort of white flashlight and a red light. That's nice. And then more recently, I've been using the OClip Ultra, which adds a UV light as long a long uh alongside uh either a spotlight or a floodlight. Um it's made out of their own aluminum. It's their sort of premium product. It's about $50. Just recently they announced the OClip Pro S model, which I think might be the sweet spot if you want to save ten dollars, and get uh the ability to have a normal flashlight, a UV light, which is fun for charging loom and that sort of thing, and then a red light, which I find quite handy for not ruining your night vision. Um I really enjoyed having a red light on a on a flashlight and on my previous O clip um for you know checking on something in a tent in the middle of the night or you know walking maybe in a a hotel room or or a uh umround my cottage at night and not needing a bright light that might wake somebody else up, that sort of thing.
Jason Heaton Yeah. And if that sounds handy to
James Stacey you to have the red light, this new model has uh a standard single flashlight, like a a white light for flashlight uses, a UV setting and also an RGB setting, which gives you red, blue or green. I have no idea why you'd want blue or green. There might be a reason I'm not aware of um but the red is definitely uh helpful and uh it saves you ten bucks is thirty nine dollars so again not an ad something I like a product I would carry quite happily I I would love it if the Oaklip Ultra had a red option um in the uh in the in the the settings. Uh but as it stands, I just charged mine and it's clipped to my bag for my trip tomorrow. So it's something I carry with me all the time and it's definitely one we see a lot on the slack. So I wanted to highlight if you were in the mode of having to choose between having UV and having a a red option, this gives you both, and it's a little bit less than the premium spec.
Jason Heaton Yeah, this is cool. I I still carried my original one. Um and it's funny I'm you know reading the description about the UV light. I I always associate having any sort of a UV light source purely with charging loom on a watch. And I always think what else would you use it for? I mean I always see it in the crime you know TV shows about looking for you know black traces and things like that. But it's uh exactly um but uh
James Stacey counterfeit detection it says yeah I mean so
Jason Heaton I was looking at the their description and they don't say anything about charging watch loom. It just says for counterfeit detection fluoresc fluorescence inspection, and cleanliness checks. Um we'll let you interpret that as you will. But um yeah, they should include for watch nerds, I think they'd expand their audience exponentially just by including
James Stacey charging anything like lows in the dark. Yeah,
Jason Heaton right. But yeah, so that's the uh Oclip
James Stacey Pro S from uh O Light and uh a great story from the New York Times via Jason. So that's a that's a pretty complete episode. We've got some silly anti-diggy watch nerdery up front. We've got uh we've got a great conversation with a genuine explorer and watch nerd uh in Kim Frank, and then uh we're wrapping it up with uh a great story about some uh some free diving and a flashlight. I can't I can't give you more.
Jason Heaton That's pretty that's that's what we can get. Pretty perfect CGM. Yeah, we're we're still we're still at it. It's three hundred and seventy five episodes in. We're still delivering. So
James Stacey maybe this will be the favorite in a future in a future uh bracket, or at least I I think definitely a front run
Jason Heaton And as always, thanks so much for listening. If you want to subscribe to the show notes, get into the comments for each episode, or consider supporting the show directly, and maybe even grab a new TGN signed NATO, please visit thegraynado..com Music Throughout is siesta by Jazzar via the Free Music Archive.
James Stacey And we leave you with this quote from the American author William Feather, who said, one way to get the most out of life is to look upon it as an adventure.